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Talk:Jonathan Archer/archive
General Peer Review Comments :Moved from Memory Alpha:Nominations for featured articles. I'd like to put the article, Jonathan Archer, up for nomination simply because it's a very well-written article and fully comprehensive. As far as I can tell, it includes everything about the man aswell as a nice background section. -- TrekFan Talk 15:38, January 21, 2011 (UTC) *'Objection': Some of the background notes require citations. --Defiant 16:10, January 21, 2011 (UTC) ::Comment: I've removed the uncited info and placed it onto the article talk page until we can find sources for the points mentioned. I was unable to locate anything after an internet search. -- TrekFan Talk 16:22, January 21, 2011 (UTC) *'Oppose': It is interesting as I was going to make some serious edits to this article as I didnt think it adhered to our standards. For specific objections see below: :1) The Contents table looks disorganized and too long. We jump from Year One and Two, to Klingons and then Delphic Expanse and then Moral Conflicts and then Homecoming. Yes, the Xindi were in the Delphic Expanse but the main point of that arc was Xindi, not Delphic Expanse. The header should reflect that. Moral Conflict also doesnt belong right before the return home, it is a personality trait issue and not a sub-section to duties/events on Enterprise. :2) The "Moral Conflicts" section needs an expansion to include, for example, the wraith they met on and the dilemma he faced with respect to saving them. :3) The "Relationships" section need some organizing. His dog is listed in there. I think Porthos should have a Header of his own right above relationships or something, not right next to Trip Reed and T'Pol. He had a special relationship with his dog, his buddy, but it is a pet and not en par with friendships he developed with people. Also, some of these "relationships" listed are essentially summaries of one episode (see "The Ericksons" which is just a synopsis of or A.G. Robinson - ). Those people, while relevant to Archer, appeared in one episode only and a summary of who they are and how they influenced him belongs into the "Early Years in Starfleet" or "Early years" sections or something on his life prior to Enterprise. Not every person he knew needs to be listed in that section separately. :4) The "Romance" section is entirely too long and unnecessarily so. There is no need to list and mention every woman who breathed on him as a romantic interest (like Keyla who wasnt even romantically interested in him but wanted info on the Suliban. Or Rajin: so she touched him to figure out his anatomy. She did the same thing with T'Pol. Can hardly call it romantic interest. Or Navaar who got his hormones going and manipulated all men on the ship, not just Archer etc). These sections are not only already mentioned in the text before, but they also dont qualify as separate "Romance" sections for reasons mentioned above. They are essentially one liners or episode summaries (see Navaar). :5) There is also no need to have two T'Pol sections - one for romance and one for friendship. They can be merged and his brief attraction to her mentioned accordingly. They were friends and colleagues. :6) It's lacking an Apocrypha section :7) Arguably, the Appearances section is unnecessary. He appeared in every episode but ok. :8) Misses a Personal Interests section :9) Misses a Alternate realities and timelines section. That stuff is thrown into the text somewhere, but should have its own section for completeness and better overview. :10) The headers need to conform to MA standards (only first word in caps etc) and some, like homecoming should be rewritten to more appropriate names. :11) More images needed. The latter half of the article is empty of images. :12) Overall, many sections need copy-editing. As mentioned, the article is not very well organized, has questionable choice of vocabulary and grammar (too much to list individually). So in summary, I disagree that this qualifies as the "best work of MA". We have done better, much better and this article needs some serious improvement. No one is asking it to be perfect, but an FA needs to not seriously lack so much. It needs some reorganizing, rewriting, expansion and editing. – Distantlycharmed 18:27, January 21, 2011 (UTC) ::Comment: I've worked on points 1), 2) and 3) though I don't believed Porthos should have his own complete section; I believe he seems to fit in the "friends" bit albeit this could require a bit more expansion. I will work on the other sections and post back here. -- TrekFan Talk 14:37, January 22, 2011 (UTC) :::Note: Item 6 (apocrypha) is not required for any article on Memory Alpha and its existence or lack thereof should in no way reflect on its featured status. Also, an appearances section is a good thing to have, since it immediately indicates to the reader that, yes, Archer was in every episode (although, strictly speaking, he wasn't in the mirror episodes). Oh, and mentioned in the new movie too. -- sulfur 15:10, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Comment: I have now added the alternate realities and timelines section to the article and expanded the Porthos section too. Archer's personal interests are in his "Early life" section in much the same way Jean-Luc Picard's are in his "Personal life" section so I do not believe we should need a separate section for that. A couple more images have also been added. DC, would you like to comment on the article now? -- TrekFan Talk 15:32, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::::Note: The format as presented by DC isn't required per se either, since there is no real established standard. A number of articles do use that format, but that just makes it a'' standard, not ''the standard. That said, this article was/is in need of some reformatting, but we neither need, or want, every article to be a cookie cutter formula affair, since not all sections would make sense depending on the subject. - 15:41, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Comment: I understand that, but I did agree with some points DC raised if not all of them. Is there anything you believe should be added/changed with this article, Archduk3? -- TrekFan Talk 15:56, January 22, 2011 (UTC) *'Comment': Trek Fan let me re-read and I'll comment. Keep in mind that the question here is: does this article represent the best work of MA and the answer is no it does not - for obvious reasons. It could use a rewrite of some sections/recognizing etc. to represent the best work of MA. I also disagree with the Apocrypha section not being needed. On the one hand you argue that an Appearance section is needed for a series regular, but the Apocrypha section where briefly non-canon works and the fate of a character are mentioned, is not needed? Especially in a character page? Someone who reads about a character might be interested to know what happened to them in non-canon works. Yes, they can go to MB for that, but that's not the point, is it? The point is to get it all here and for more go to MB and other sources. Anyway, an FA needs to stand out and be complete. This is not a race. It reflects on us as MA if we take an article in need of serious copy editing and reorganizing and feature it as our best work. If you are going for the "what's the minimum required to pass" kind of attitude - which is what I am seeing in sulfur's and especially Duke's comment - then you might as well FA 20,000 articles on MA because they all minimally adhere to what is required. – Distantlycharmed 16:51, January 22, 2011 (UTC) :::All of this commentary suggests that this should be a peer review rather than an outright nomination. -- sulfur 17:25, January 22, 2011 (UTC) *'Comment': sulfur: agreed. @ TrekFan: I noticed writing the friendship section of Trip that it ends with . Nothing about what happened to the two men after season 2 (i.e. during xindi attack and season 4 with Trip leaving the ship etc) is mentioned. The same thing is true for most of the friendship sections, they need expansion. It says, for example, he "opened up to Travis" but doesn't say how and why. Stuff like that. It definitely looks better than before - especially the organization of the sections and renaming of the headers, but I would suggest going through each section - one by one - re-reading it, expanding and/or rewriting/copy-editing where needed - and it is needed. I unfortunately dont have time to do it all, or it wouldnt get done as soon as you'd like it, but I can try if i find the time. – Distantlycharmed 17:26, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Comment: Well, in that case, perhaps this should be moved to a peer review? I would be up for doing that before re-nomination. DC, if you could work on those areas you think are missing/incomplete and let me know when you have done so, I can go through it again and try and add some more references to areas that are lacking? -- TrekFan Talk 17:35, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::::Comment: RE:TrekFan, mainly some basic reformatting, which is mostly done already, and further detail, not the removal of, for sections and what not. The point I was trying to get across was that covering the subject well in canon is more important than laying out the article in some supposed required format. That said, I'm just going to move this whole thing to a peer review article, since we have already covered far more ground than most peer reviews. - 17:56, January 22, 2011 (UTC) ::Yeah, I think it's a wise thing to do, Archduk3. Some things have been pointed out here and do need working on before it goes up for re-nomination. I agree that detail is more important than layout, though I also have to agree with DC's first point that some sections were laid out a bit confusing. I believe the layout is better now, though. If there's any more detail that needs to be added to the article, I'm sure we can work on that here. -- TrekFan Talk 18:54, January 22, 2011 (UTC) Removed uncited background info I've removed the following uncited bg info as I'm unable to find sources for them: :Bakula stated (half-jokingly) that he thought that Archer's middle name was Beckett. This is a reference to Dr. Sam Beckett, a character that Bakula is well known for having played in the television series '' prior to taking up his role on Enterprise. :''Archer's first name was originally to have been "Jackson", but eventually the name was switched to "Jonathan", as research turned up exactly one person with the name of "Jackson Archer." '' -- TrekFan Talk 16:20, January 21, 2011 (UTC) Relationships section I have expanded Trips section considerably and also added more images to it. I will work on getting more info for the other characters in the relationship part aswell. I don't foresee theirs being as long as Trips though. I'd appreciate any comments. -- TrekFan Open a channel 03:06, January 26, 2011 (UTC) :There's room for improvement with Hoshi's section, as there are either details missing or glossed over. Also, is not a valid reference for the Porthos section. - 19:35, January 26, 2011 (UTC) Romance section I removed most of the people from the romance section, except for Hernandez. Let's face it. Archer's life was his mission and he just didnt get involved with anyone in all these 4 years. I wish he had, but he didnt. So, I moved some of his earlier acquaintances to "Early life" - as some if it were flings it seems or just mere memories of a random person. I dont think they require separate sections as they were not part of his present or major Trek/series characters. However, if you think they should, by all means. Also, Rajin and Keyla etc were not romantic interests or even flings by any stretch of the imagination. Keyla didnt evne like Archer. So just something to keep in mind. Please feel free to edit accordingly Distantlycharmed 18:53, January 26, 2011 (UTC). :I think that works, actually. The minor romances are mentioned in the early life which fits fine, and yes I think you were right in placing Erika as the main person in the romances section. -- TrekFan Open a channel 19:06, January 26, 2011 (UTC) ::We are not here to judge what is important enough or not, we simply report what is known. If we don't include everybody in at least some manner, there's no point in having this section at all. - 19:35, January 26, 2011 (UTC) :What I think DC means is, the "romance" between Rajiin for example wasn't really a romance at all, whereas Erika Hernandez was explicity stated to be. The "crushes" he had in his early life have been placed into the early life section as they aren't two-way romances either. -- TrekFan Open a channel 19:44, January 26, 2011 (UTC) Apocrypha I have added an apocrypha section with a couple of references to Archer. If anyone knows of anymore, please do add them. -- TrekFan Open a channel 19:45, January 26, 2011 (UTC)